Proof of God

What “Proof of God” justifies your position? (part four)

This is part four of a four-part series.

So God isn’t omnipotent. He’s still the Creator.

When believers say, “God is beyond understanding, beyond definition,” they don’t really mean it. At the very least, I would say, there is one characteristic that provides a very clear definition of God: “God is the entity that can determine the nature of matter and its interactions in a definable region. God makes universes, at least this one.”

That’s why Jews, Christians, and Muslims couldn’t possibly accept Zeus, Odin, or Brahma as “God”; none of those can claim they created the universe. This “creation claim” is unique to the Abrahamic religions and central to their beliefs.

Proof of GodI find this to be a beautifully scientific claim. There are all sorts of things that we may not yet understand, but that are potentially comprehensible to us: the nature of matter, the nature of physical laws, the nature of space and time (a definable region). We consider all these to be scientific; we can work with this.

Other claims of the miracles that God can perform are vague, silly, and somehow lesser than this one. We have biblical stories that God can change water into wine, raise the dead, stop the planet’s rotation for a while. These do seem rather “miraculous” (if given any credibility at all). I will claim however that these are nothing more than fancy applications of advanced technology.

Proof of GodModern medicine raises many people from the dead (myself included) when it brings back someone whose heart has stopped. You might say, “Oh, they’re not really dead, they need to be dead longer.” That just sounds like an application of more advanced technology. Has all metabolism stopped? Has all DNA degraded? At what point would believers want to claim God can raise someone from the dead? What if they have degraded down to their molecular components and been dispersed around the planet? What if they fell into a burning sun or a black hole?

Stopping the revolution of the planet is pretty impressive. One could conceive of the application of massive and powerful energies being applied and some kind of a stasis field to stop the oceans from sloshing around and people from flying off the surface due to the sudden deceleration. Highly advanced technology, to be sure, and we certainly have no idea how to do such a thing at our present stage.

But to say, it is not even achievable technologically in principle is to make a prediction about the limitations of the capabilities of future humans or any advanced civilization. Whenever one has made those in the past, they have almost always turned out to be wrong, providing they have any scientific basis whatsoever.

I claim there is only ONE capability that would give someone the “right” to call themselves “God.” That is the ability to impose a set of natural laws on real matter (equivalent to “creating a universe”). If you have the ability to create a universe, where the stuff of that universe behaves in a way that you determine, you are “God” (at least to that universe). Anything that constrains the kind of matter you can make or the way that matter interacts, limits your claim to be called “God.”

Any other entity, no matter how advanced its technology, that is constrained to operating within the natural properties of the matter in its universe, should not be considered “God.” A being that could determine the natural properties of matter would trump any other kind of technology. Only that being could be said to be Supreme.

The main theological claim of the Abrahamic religions is that, despite whatever logical or natural limitations there may be to God’s abilities, He is nonetheless the Creator of the universe (some may say, specifically, of the world and of life, but I think creating the universe encompasses these smaller claims).

Is “being God” the same as having advanced technology?

Proof of GodLet’s ask ourselves about “God, the Creator.” Does God understand how He does what He does? Does He understand the process of Creation in a scientific sense, the way we understand how computer chips work? If so, can God teach these scientific principles to another person, teach someone else how to be God?

There are only two possible answers: Yes or No.

No: If God has no idea how to create a universe, we really have to ask how He could lay claim to having done it. How does He know it came into existence by His action? Could He do it again? If we answer, “No,” we have to ask whether the “God claim” is substantiated.

Yes: If God understands completely the principles of universe creation, then it would seem to be a science. That is, it’s something that is comprehensible by some being (with sufficient intelligence, one would presume). One would expect, like most things that can be understood, that God can subsequently teach “godhood” (i.e. how to create a universe), i.e. that “godhood” is essentially a science.

If it’s a science, why can’t we discover it on our own? If it’s a science, then the “supernatural” (outside of nature) claims for God simply fail. God becomes a subset of “natural.” We may honor that, respect that, but why would we worship it?

Now some might argue that God understands how to make universes but no one else can (presumably because we are either not smart enough or lack some ability). But this fails logically.

Everything that is understandable can be taught to someone of sufficient intelligence and ability. Some point to perceptual or physical limitations, saying things like: “You can’t teach the colorblind to see color, though they may understand the principle”; or “You can’t teach a person without arms to play the guitar.” These are silly objections because they are based on essentially technological limitations.

Even we humans are not that far away from using stem cells to restore cone receptors in the eyes of the color blind. Limb regeneration is not an impossibility, as we already know there are creatures on Earth who can regrow severed limbs; we just need to develop the understanding.

Surely, the Creator (who understands how He does what He does) could hypothetically also create a being capable of perceiving and understanding the process of creation. Surely, He would have enough scientific knowledge to be able to pass it down to a sufficiently advanced being. If we can extend our knowledge and abilities, why can’t He?

The conclusion is almost inevitable: Any being sufficiently advanced to create a universe should be able to teach the ability to another sufficiently advanced being. Further, the Creator should understand enough biology (or computational theory) to find a way to make capable beings that are currently incapable of understanding creation. We may not know how to do this yet, but it would be the height of hubris to suggest God can’t do it. Being God, “godhood” –if that has any meaning—must be a science that we could potentially understand.

Conclusion

So, we’ve explored the limitations to any putative “God’s” abilities. We’ve concluded that the God of the Abrahamic faiths is not all-loving, all-knowing, nor all-powerful. Those conclusions are an inevitable result of Scripture, experience, and logic. We’ve also narrowed our definition of God to His primary defining characteristic or claim: God is the Creator of the universe. But then we’ve gone on to show how creating a universe is really something that is scientifically achievable, at least in principle. If it’s something that has a scientific basis, we humans should eventually be able to figure it out on our own.

Why should we use the possibility that there is some other being who understands more about how the universe works as a justification for our reckless, insane behaviors, for going to war with someone whose views are only moderately different? Especially when we can’t really distinguish between this imperfect being we call “God” from some scientifically, technologically very advanced alien being. This seems much more akin to “picking a favorite team” than any rational basis for how we approach the universe.

Proof of GodIs “God” just a “favorite team?” How do people in Boston decide they like the Celtics, the Bruins, or the Red Sox more than they like Toronto’s Raptors, Maple Leafs, or Blue Jays? Well, favorite sports teams are chosen by where we were born, where we grew up, where we live, who our friends are, and so on. All social factors. It turns out that being born and growing up in a country that primarily practices the Muslim faith is a great predictor that you are more likely to become Muslim than Christian or Jewish. It turns out most of us pick religions much the same way we pick sports teams or political parties.

If God is like a favorite sports team, why would rational people choose that method to determine how they live, who they associate with, who they listen to as authorities? They wouldn’t. Religion is a lot like that; it’s not rational. More dangerously, it’s not a rational way to develop public policy. As I said at the beginning, I don’t really care what you believe in the privacy of your own mind, but when your beliefs affect the public policy that you propose or support, then I care greatly.

I want public policy to be rational, based on the best available evidence and logical analysis. I want public policy to be flexible, to adjust in the face of new data rather than defend its dogmatic and indefensible ideology. That’s the only reason I care about your beliefs, the only reason I challenge those beliefs. When anyone uses their unsubstantiated beliefs to formulate policy in the public domain, I think it’s incumbent on evidence-based, rational people to challenge the basis of those beliefs.




Proof of God

What “Proof of God” justifies your position? (part three)

This is part three of a four-part series.

Is God all-knowing?

Proof of GodWell, this is absurd on so many levels. If God was all-knowing then why were Adam and Eve punished (kicked out of the Garden of Eden) for eating of the forbidden fruit? Didn’t God see that one coming? Is it fair to punish someone for doing something that was practically built-in to their design by their supposedly perfect, inerrant designer?

And what of free-will? How can we freely choose between options AND have God know what our choice will be before we make it?

From an information-theory point of view, there is a LOT of information in the universe. Does God know where each single subatomic particle in the universe is and where it’s going? How does He know this? More importantly, how does He bypass the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (which states “it’s not possible to know both the position of a particle and the velocity of that particle with perfect precision, not even in theory)?”

 

 

Proof of GodInformation can be represented as bits, 1s and  0s. Think of it as “information removes uncertainty.” Before you flip a coin, you don’t know if it’ll land on heads or tails. Your uncertainty is equal to the probability that either choice could come up, one-in-two or one-half (we use a mathematical formula to convert this to bits of information:). Once you flip it, the coin lands on one side or the other. At that point, your uncertainty drops to zero from one-half. We say the information from that test is one bit.

So, how many bits of information are there in the universe? This is impossible to know, but the number is enormous. A single atom of iron may require 1080 bits to fully describe it. Derek Abbott of the University of Adelaide says,

“We know the entropy of a black hole is related to its surface area divided by the Planck length. So what we can do is pretend the whole [known, ed.] universe is a black hole and use the radius of the known universe to get its surface area. And as entropy is related to information, we can calculate the maximum number of bits. Then depending on the details, you’ll get a number between 10122 and 10124 bits for the whole universe.”

Your modern desktop computer, has something like 1011 bits in its hardware. You’d need 10113 such computers to store all the information in the known universe, alone. The whole universe only contains around 1082 atoms, so it’s hard to see how you could ever have enough computers for the task. Especially given that each computer contains around a mole (1023) atoms of material.

“So, what?” a believer might ask. Well, here’s the thing. God (if such a being exists) would need to be much bigger than the universe just to contain all the information that is in that universe. “No problem,” the believer says. “God is infinite.” (another scientific claim, by the way) Now, let’s add to God’s burden. God is all-knowing so, in addition to knowing everything about our universe, He must know everything about himself.

In addition to encoding all the bits about our universe, an all-knowing God needs to encode all the bits that represent Himself. That includes His representation of our universe. You can see this is going to become a problem very quickly. The omniscient God must contain enough bits to encode all the information PLUS all the information about the bits that encode that information PLUS all the information about those bits that encode that information PLUS…it never ends.

The only reasonable conclusion is that God can’t logically be omniscient.

Is God all-powerful?

The Stone Paradox is most commonly used to represents logical limitations to an omnipotent being. Simply, it asks: Could an omnipotent being create a stone too heavy for it to lift? Other variations of this include: Could an omnipotent being make a square triangle?

Proof of GodThe basis for the Stone Paradox is simple. If the answer is “Yes” (God can make a stone too heavy for Him to lift) then there is something He can’t do, namely lift a stone He created. If the answer is “No” then, again, there is something He can’t do, namely make such a stone.

More recently Pastor Peter LaRuffa has (in)famously stated,

“If somewhere within the Bible, I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn’t question what I’m reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and then do my best to work it out and understand it.”

This is the same stance taken by French mathematician and philosopher Rene Descarte. The view that an omnipotent being could do absolutely anything, even the logically absurd, is known as ”voluntarism.”

Most theologians and philosophers don’t accept voluntarism but instead resort to “act theory“ interpretations. These take on the form: A being S is omnipotent if-and-only-if S can perform any action A such that A is possible. So, because a square circle, for example, is not possible, it is absurd to believe an omnipotent God can make one.

Act theory doesn’t claim the absolute omnipotence of God, but rather that God is the maximally powerful being. That God can do anything that can be done. A logically contradictory state of affairs is not a thing at all, but NOTHING. An all-powerful God can do or make anything, but it’s meaningless to say that He can do or make a ”nothing.”

The point is, ‘a rock too heavy for God to lift’ really means ‘a rock too heavy for a being who can lift anything’, so it is a self-contradiction. A ‘square circle’ and ‘2+2=5’ are likewise contradictory states of affairs. Therefore these are all nothings.

This immediately leads to the objection, “What sets the constraint about what can be done? Is God forced to obey laws of nature or laws of logic that He has not created? If so, God is not the maximally powerful being imaginable. Why do logical paradoxes lead to NOTHINGS for an all-powerful God?”

Some philosophers have tried to overcome these problems by resorting to the “result theories“ of Leibniz and Ross, where a being is omnipotent if-and-only-if any possible state of affairs, or any possible world. A possible state of affairs is defined as “a way the world could be.” For instance, the sky’s being blue is a possible state of affairs, and John’s being a married bachelor is an impossible state of affairs.

Result theory would say, there being a stone an omnipotent being cannot lift is clearly not a possible state of affairs. An omnipotent being could therefore not bring it about. On the other hand, there being a stone its creator cannot lift is a possible state of affairs, and could be brought about by an omnipotent being, under the Leibniz-Ross theory, for an omnipotent being could bring it about that some other being created a stone which that being could not lift. Therefore, the Stone Paradox is claimed to not be a problem for the Leibniz-Ross theory.

I have a hard time distinguishing this from act theory; it may be too subtle for me. I would claim that this hasn’t got around the Stone Paradox at all. The result theory argument is that there’s a possible world where omnipotent being A creates some other being (or version of itself) B that makes the stone that A cannot subsequently lift, at the same time that a different being or version of itself is lifting it. That would seem to imply that A can make a possible world where being B  can do something A can’t. Why would we call A omnipotent in that case?

Here’s a video that demonstrates an interesting attempt to get around the Stone Paradox by making God able to split into two different versions of himself. Version A can’t life the rock, but at the same time version B can lift both A and the rock. That’s pretty neat. But, the original claim implied a single being we could call God. In this video, God splits into two beings with different capabilities. Is it fair to call either of them omnipotent? Are either of them still God?

This is a cute trick but it seems more like saying, “God’s right hand can make a stone too heavy for God’s left hand to lift.” It’s not at all clear this is the same test as the Stone Paradox proposes. Instead of proposing two different versions of God, we could simply say, “God at time x can create a stone that only God at time y can lift.” That is, we can split God temporally instead of spatially. I would claim these are not logically equivalent to our initial proposal.

The Leibniz-Ross result theory, leads to other odd or absurd metaphysical consequences, including the implication that an omnipotent being exists necessarily. According to Leibniz’s formulation, an omnipotent being would be able to actualize any possible world, but it is absurd to suppose that an omnipotent being should actualize a world in which it never existed. It follows that no such world is possible. Of course, this assumes that an omnipotent being existed in any possible world.

If there is no world (not any) in which an omnipotent being could possibly exist, then it wouldn’t exist in all possible worlds. Either God exists in all possible worlds or in none.

There are easily enough paradoxes in the idea of an omnipotent being that can’t be logically dismissed that we should be very wary of the whole concept.

In the next post, I’ll examine the “Creator claim” made of the Abrahamic God and draw my final conclusions.




God's superpowers

What “Proof of God” justifies your position? (part two)

This is part two of a four-part series.

What is the nature of the Abrahamic God? Besides creating the universe and life, what does He do? What are His superpowers? There have been many secondary claims made about the Abrahamic God: He is variously claimed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent (all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving). These claims are easily disputed through scripture, experience, and reason. Let’s examine them.

God's superpowers

Is God all-loving?

The Greek philosopher, Epicurus (341-270 BC) famously asked:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

In Plato’s dialogue Euthyphro, Socrates asks, “Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods?” In other words, is any act of God morally good because God did it (or commanded it), or is God constrained to only perform or command morally good acts? If we are able to independently judge God’s acts as “good” or “bad” then is there a basis for that judgment that is independent of God?

What can we learn of God’s morality from the Bible?

Let’s look at how the Bible views slavery, for example, something that very few believe is morally good in this day and age. Here are a few excerpts from a lengthy article on the subject:

God's superpowersExodus Chapter 21, verse 1:

When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’ then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl [presumably to make way for an earing, ed.]; and he shall serve him for life.

In his book, “Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God”, Lee Strobel argues against our common interpretation of slavery in ancient Jewish culture:

Servitude in Israel was radically different than slavery in the antebellum South. Although people on both sides argued that the Bible does—or does not—endorse slavery, I argue that we have good reason to think that the “biblical case” for Southern slavery doesn’t hold up.

For one thing, the term “slave” or “slavery” in the Old Testament is often a mistranslation. The Mosaic Law typically refers to “servitude” as indentured service—much like arrangements in colonial America: those who couldn’t pay for their voyage to the New World would work for seven years to pay off their debt, and then they were free to operate in society as ordinary citizens.

What’s interesting about contracted servitude in Israel was that it was, first of all, voluntary: a person would “sell himself” or parcel out family members to work, and they would in return receive clothing, a roof over their heads, and food on the table. Servitude was also limited to seven years unless the servant voluntarily chose lifelong servitude, which brought both stability and security in difficult economic times.

But read the following passages and ask yourself if that sounds like “indentured service” or “contracted servitude.” I don’t think so.

Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44:

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20:

If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

So the Bible recognizes it is okay to trade in people (but not fellow Israelites), though perhaps this is just the buying and selling of indentured servitude. It recognizes slavery as being ruthless and that is the primary justification for not taking other Israelites as slaves. But it also recognizes that beating slaves is acceptable as long as that slave does not die (one can only presume maiming is acceptable).

The question is, then, does the God of the Old Testament act in a way that the cultures of the time saw as being morally correct, but which we no longer approve? Or is God’s “morality” constant and outside of the morality of the cultures of the time, the way most Abrahamic religions portray it? If so, how do we reject slavery in modern times?

Are we wrong, or is God?

Some Christian apologists say, “Those verses are from the Old Testament and no longer apply because of Jesus.” But, this ignores the fact that Jesus specifically states that the laws of the Old Testament still stand in the New Testament. In Matthew 5:18 Jesus says:

“Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”

What can we learn of God’s morality from experience?

English comedian and activist, Richard Fry, when asked what he would say to God if he were confronted by Him at the Pearly Gates, answered:

“I’d say, bone cancer in children? What’s that about? How dare you? How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It’s not right, it’s utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain? That’s what I would say.”

British naturalist David Attenborough, when asked why he didn’t credit God for the wonders of nature in his documentaries, replied:

“They always mean beautiful things like hummingbirds. I always reply by saying that I think of a little child in east Africa with a worm burrowing through his eyeball. The worm cannot live in any other way, except by burrowing through eyeballs. Why would an all-loving God, Creator of Life on this planet, have planned such a hideous punishment for an innocent child?”

God's superpowers

One of the most famous quotes about God’s morality is attributed to a carving on the wall of a Nazi concentration camp by an anonymous Jewish prisoner. It reads, “If there is a God, He will have to beg my forgiveness.“ Clearly, the world is, and always has been, full of suffering. It is difficult (impossible, really) to reconcile an all-loving God with current, historical, and even biblical human experiences.

“But God works in mysterious ways,” many apologists answer. Yet, it doesn’t seem so much mysterious as contradictory. We have to ask ourselves, if we can look at things (like slavery, prison camps, bone cancer, and parasitic worms) that appear acceptable to God, and see that they are obviously wrong, why should we trust that He really was working for the eventual betterment of the human condition?

In the next post, I’ll discuss “God’s superpowers.” Is God all-knowing and all-powerful?




God

What “Proof of God” justifies your position? (part one)

What “Proof of God” justifies your position?

I begin a four-part series today.

Philosophers, theologians, and scientists have been grappling with the issue of God’s existence for millennia. Much of the discussion in past centuries may have been motivated simply by curiosity or by a protest against theological dogma. For many of us in the modern world, the notion of God is a very private one. God may show up in our prayers but frequently doesn’t have much effect in our daily decisions. Why might it still be important to ask whether or not God exists, today?

Why does God still matter?

Related imageLet me state up front that I don’t really care what you truly, deeply believe in the privacy of your own mind. You could believe you are the King of Narnia. You could believe Harry Potter or Peter Pan are real, for all I care. I know many people who believe things at least as improbable as this.

You may not believe it, but I don’t like debating people’s faith, no matter what arguments they use to justify or rationalize why they believe. I don’t think rejecting religious beliefs is the best road to atheism. In many ways, atheism is not really a belief system at all and is certainly not a replacement for religion. That’s why I’m an “empirical physicalist“; it seems more like a philosophical position than simply not believing the “God claims” of others.

But people’s beliefs, particularly the heartfelt ones, have a habit of making their way into public policy. If you say, “In the case of North Korea, God has given Trump authority to take out Kim Jong Un,” you are now using your beliefs (without much, if any, objective evidence) to justify, recommend, or set public policy. And that public policy could lead to a proliferation of global nuclear war, ending the time of “God’s children” on this planet.

Is Trump’s authority from God?

proof of godThat’s where I have trouble.

Religious beliefs are among the most blatant and pernicious belief systems when it comes to influencing public policy. Religious beliefs gave us prohibition and help governments and other public groups justify their ongoing wars against drugs, abortion, homosexuality, the sexual revolution, feminism, evolution theory, Big Bang theory, science, and – most notably – against other religions.

In the United States, despite being in the vast religious majority, Christians feel they increasingly suffer from religious persecution. And they have begun to take steps to reverse what they see as their exclusion from public policy formation. Many atheists rush to point out that there is no persecution of Christianity, only a desired leveling of the moral playing field, a removal of the privileges commonly granted religious organizations such as freedom from taxation and the “right” to deny public service on the basis of Faith.

For this reason, it is important for those who hold religious beliefs to examine the reasons they use to justify their public policy positions.

For many people, a belief in God comes along with the religious beliefs they grew up with. There is no doubt that the emotional and social support many receive through the beliefs they share with their family and community provides great comfort. When asked why they believe, people will point to nature or the universe and ask how one could otherwise explain the existence of such beauty. They may claim they “feel” God or have a “God-shaped-hole” in their hearts that yearns for a connection to something greater than themselves.

These are emotional justifications; they simply assume that God must exist because that is the only way the believer can imagine their feelings having a source. I usually try to be more rational about something as potentially important as a belief in how the universe works. I certainly hope none of our politicians make their important decisions on the basis of their “feelings.” Psychological studies into paranoia and schizophrenia suggest that feelings or subjective experiences are not always the best basis for making good decisions.

Many people have fuzzy notions of God. God could be a “force,” a “presence,” or a “Guardian/Protector,” for example. For many, their idea of God has some basis in their holy texts.

Perhaps unique to the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) is a belief in a single God. Other religions like Hinduism and Buddhism either have a proliferation of gods or no god in particular. The central claim of the Abrahamic religions is that God is the Creator of all: the universe, the Earth, all life, and the human soul.

In the next post, I’ll discuss the nature or character of the God of the Bible and we can start examining the claims made of His existence in greater detail.




Immoral god

Jehova, The Immoral God

Jehova, The Immoral god

The bible tells us not to kill, not to covet, not to be jealous, yet throughout the Old Testament there is an evil monster doing just that. Let me introduce Jehovah, the immoral god of the bible.

He is a jealous god by his own admission and jealousy, in its very nature, requires the act of coveting. Due to this he will make those that decide to pray to or adore another deity pay, sometimes with their lives and even the lives of their off spring. Murdering, covetous and jealous, a sinner by his own standards

He will command those that do believe to kill their family, friends and neighbours for daring to worship another deity. Inciting immoral behaviour in the “Righteous”, yet he will not let anyone know for sure that he exists. You must just believe, but giving the unbelievers no reason to follow him. These are not the actions of an all loving, all forgiving deity that wants to bring people to his fold, which Christians portray Jehovah as, and the bible claims him to be.

Yet Christians will claim morality comes from their god. Do as I say not as I do? That is no way to lead. Nowadays, thankfully, we now can see the evolution of empathy in our ancestors, and can deduce from that how those morals evolved. We also have in depth neurological studies and don’t need to guess that they come from a god. And just as well, as Jehovah is not the best moral compass to set your standards to.

The below list is only with regards to killing, and does not address rape and slavery, which the immoral Jehovah doesn’t seem to mind to much at all, at all!!

By his own admission he is jealous god, and his jealousy leads to him coveting believers in other gods as he wants their adoration. For himself, when he can not have their adoration he becomes envious, which in turn leads to him commanding the deaths of those that dare to leave him or worship another.

Clearly not the act of an all loving, all forgiving god…..

Jealous and punishing the generations to follow

Exodus 20:5 King James Version (KJV)

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

It seems Jehova saw the error of his ways in Ezekial 18:20

The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

God punishes David by killing his child

2 Samuel 12

11 Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.

18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?

19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.

See Ezekial 18:20

Kill People Who Don’t Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel.  (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Jehova decided to take 1 prophet at a time to reveal himself to. how can he be morally justified in ordering the murder of people he has not shown himself to. They are right to be skeptical as there were and still are many people/groups claiming they represent the 1 true god or gods.

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live.  (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

This is open to abuse. You want someone executed so you accuse them of sorcery. The god of the OT did not define any specifics for detecting a sorceress. This may not be immoral but it draws in to question the thinking of a supposedly perfect deity. There should be no ambiguity from a perfect being.

Kill Homosexuals

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”  (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

WTF Jehova?? We are now learning some cases of homosexuality are epigenetic. It starts in the womb. Sexual preference is decided before birth in these cases. An all knowing god would know this so ordering their death is highly immoral.

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death.  (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

I have no time for such charlatans but to put them to death for trying to earn a dishonest crust is a little extreme. Ordering assassinations is certainly immoral.

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.  (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Nobody should inflict violence on another living creature, so if they do inflict extreme violence on them. Jehova does love his death sentences.

Death for Cursing Parents

  1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness.  (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense.  (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

An eye for an eye, hardly. Death for uttering a meaningless incantation. Another WTF jehova moment.

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.  (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

My opinion on adultery is dont cheat. Be an adult and walk away if you want to be with someone else, but maintain any parental responsibilities if there are children involved in the break up. If you dont support your children and you can I am all for a little jail time but we are human. We have an evolutionary desire to procreate and pass on our genes. To kill someone for wanting to do this is an abomination.

 Death for Fornication

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Kill, kill kill, assassinate in my name. Jehova is such a bad example!!

Death to Followers of Other Religions

 Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.  (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Jehova chooses not to show himself so there will be no doubt he exists but if you are a follower of his you MUST kill those that would dare believe in another deity. He certainly is a jealous god.

Kill Nonbelievers

 They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.  (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

See Death to followers comment

Kill False Prophets

 If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.”  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through.  (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

See Death to followers comment

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.  In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully.  If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock.  Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it.  Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.  That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt.  Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction.  Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.  He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors.  “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.”  (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

See Death to Followers of Other Religions comment

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.  (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshipping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

See Death to Followers of Other Religions comment

 Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men.  During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name.  So the man was brought to Moses for judgment.  His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan.  They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear.  Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head.  Then let the entire community stone him to death.  Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished.  Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel.  Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.  (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Basically the immoral, unjust, unforgiving continues here and below. If this was a state head nowadays he would be seen as a tyrant and a despot. Please do carry on reading down to the horrific list of punishments and you judge if the punishment fits the crime……

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Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles,  and the predicted signs or miracles take place.  If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them.  The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul.  Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone.  Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him.  The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt.  Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’  You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’  If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message.  That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared.  (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.  As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.  Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies.  So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever.  Amen.  That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires.  Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.  And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other.  Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.  When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.  Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.  They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful.  They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.  They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.  They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway.  And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.  (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites.  You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment.  They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it.  Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again.  Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’  (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever.  It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.  Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’  (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

2) God’s Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats

From there Elisha went up to Bethel.  While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him.  “Go up baldhead,” they shouted, “go up baldhead!”  The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord.  Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.  (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God kills the curious

And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and’ fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter.  And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us?   (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion

Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, “Strike me!”  But the man refused to strike the prophet.  Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me.”  And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him.  (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Killing the Good Samaritan

The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill.  Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.

    When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip.  But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God.  (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)

3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners

Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.  (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children

The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived.  Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you.  It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone.  I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre.  But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered.”  O LORD, what should I request for your people?  I will ask for wombs that don’t give birth and breasts that give no milk.  The LORD says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them.  I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions.  I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.  The people of Israel are stricken.  Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit.  And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.”  (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Kill Men, Women, and Children

“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked.  Show no mercy; have no pity!  Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children.  But do not touch anyone with the mark.  Begin your task right here at the Temple.”  So they began by killing the seventy leaders.  “Defile the Temple!” the LORD commanded.  “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill!  Go!”  So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.”  (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

God Kills all the First Born of Egypt

And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed.  Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died.  (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)

Kill Old Men and Young Women

“You are my battle-ax and sword,” says the LORD.  “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms.  With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer.  With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.  With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers.  “As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem,” says the LORD.  “Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth!  I am your enemy,” says the LORD.  “I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights.  When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble.  You will be desolate forever.  Even your stones will never again be used for building.  You will be completely wiped out,” says the LORD.  (Jeremiah 51:20-26)

(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter.  So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)

God Will Kill the Children of Sinners

If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.  I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted.  (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)

More Rape and Baby Killing

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

4) Miscellaneous Murders

More of Samson’s Murders

(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.)  When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands.  Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men.  (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)

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Peter Kills Two People

There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property.  He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount.  His wife had agreed to this deception. 

Then Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart?  You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself.  The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished.  And after selling it, the money was yours to give away.  How could you do a thing like this?  You weren’t lying to us but to God.”  As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died.  Everyone who heard about it was terrified.  Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him.  About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.  Peter asked her, “Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?”  “Yes,” she replied, “that was the price.”  And Peter said, “How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord?  Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too.”  Instantly, she fell to the floor and died.  When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.  Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened.   (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)

 Mass Murder

This is what the Lord of  hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt.  Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban.  Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’   (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

You Have to Kill

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood.  (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

The Danites Kill the Next Town

But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword.  Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan.  (Joshua 19:47 NAB)

God Kills Some More

Then the LORD said to me, “Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them.  Away with them!  Get them out of my sight!  And if they say to you, ‘But where can we go?’ tell them, ‘This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.’  “I will send four kinds of destroyers against them,” says the LORD.  “I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left.  Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.”  (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)

God Promises More Killing 

I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return.  I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword.  I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD.  (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)

The Angel of Death

My angel will go before you and bring you to the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Canaanites, Hivites, and Jebusites; and I will wipe them out.  (Exodus 23:23 NAB)

Destruction of Ai

Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Do not be afraid or discouraged.  Take the entire army and attack Ai, for I have given to you the king of Ai, his people, his city, and his land.  You will destroy them as you destroyed Jericho and its king. But this time you may keep the captured goods and the cattle for yourselves. Set an ambush behind the city.”  So Joshua and the army of Israel set out to attack Ai.  Joshua chose thirty thousand fighting men and sent them out at night with these orders: “Hide in ambush close behind the city and be ready for action.  When our main army attacks, the men of Ai will come out to fight as they did before, and we will run away from them.  We will let them chase us until they have all left the city. For they will say, ‘The Israelites are running away from us as they did before.’  Then you will jump up from your ambush and take possession of the city, for the LORD your God will give it to you.  Set the city on fire, as the LORD has commanded.  You have your orders.”  So they left that night and lay in ambush between Bethel and the west side of Ai.  But Joshua remained among the people in the camp that night. 

    Early the next morning Joshua roused his men and started toward Ai, accompanied by the leaders of Israel.  They camped on the north side of Ai, with a valley between them and the city.  That night Joshua sent five thousand men to lie in ambush between Bethel and Ai, on the west side of the city.  So they stationed the main army north of the city and the ambush west of the city.  Joshua himself spent that night in the valley.  When the king of Ai saw the Israelites across the valley, he and all his army hurriedly went out early the next morning and attacked the Israelites at a place overlooking the Jordan Valley.  But he didn’t realize there was an ambush behind the city.  Joshua and the Israelite army fled toward the wilderness as though they were badly beaten,  and all the men in the city were called out to chase after them.  In this way, they were lured away from the city.  There was not a man left in Ai or Bethel who did not chase after the Israelites, and the city was left wide open. 

    Then the LORD said to Joshua, “Point your spear toward Ai, for I will give you the city.”  Joshua did as he was commanded.  As soon as Joshua gave the signal, the men in ambush jumped up and poured into the city.  They quickly captured it and set it on fire.  When the men of Ai looked behind them, smoke from the city was filling the sky, and they had nowhere to go. For the Israelites who had fled in the direction of the wilderness now turned on their pursuers.  When Joshua and the other Israelites saw that the ambush had succeeded and that smoke was rising from the city, they turned and attacked the men of Ai.  Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped.  Only the king of Ai was taken alive and brought to Joshua.

    When the Israelite army finished killing all the men outside the city, they went back and finished off everyone inside.  So the entire population of Ai was wiped out that day – twelve thousand in all.  For Joshua kept holding out his spear until everyone who had lived in Ai was completely destroyed.  Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua.  So Ai became a permanent mound of ruins, desolate to this very day.  Joshua hung the king of Ai on a tree and left him there until evening. At sunset the Israelites took down the body and threw it in front of the city gate.  They piled a great heap of stones over him that can still be seen today.  (Joshua 8:1-29 NLT)

Killing at Jericho

When the people heard the sound of the horns, they shouted as loud as they could. Suddenly, the walls of Jericho collapsed, and the Israelites charged straight into the city from every side and captured it.  They completely destroyed everything in it – men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys – everything.  (Joshua 6:20-21 NLT)

God Kills an Extended Family

    “You have done more evil than all who lived before you.  You have made other gods and have made me furious with your gold calves.  And since you have turned your back on me, I will bring disaster on your dynasty and kill all your sons, slave or free alike.  I will burn up your royal dynasty as one burns up trash until it is all gone.  I, the LORD, vow that the members of your family who die in the city will be eaten by dogs, and those who die in the field will be eaten by vultures.'”  Then Ahijah said to Jeroboam’s wife, “Go on home, and when you enter the city, the child will die.  All Israel will mourn for him and bury him.  He is the only member of your family who will have a proper burial, for this child is the only good thing that the LORD, the God of Israel, sees in the entire family of Jeroboam.  And the LORD will raise up a king over Israel who will destroy the family of Jeroboam.  This will happen today, even now!  Then the LORD will shake Israel like a reed whipped about in a stream.  He will uproot the people of Israel from this good land that he gave their ancestors and will scatter them beyond the Euphrates River, for they have angered the LORD by worshiping Asherah poles.  He will abandon Israel because Jeroboam sinned and made all of Israel sin along with him.”  (1 Kings 14:9-16 NLT)

Mass Murder

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon.  Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon.  (Judges 20:48 NAB)

The Angel of Death

That night the angel of the Lord went forth and struck down one hundred and eighty five thousand men in the Assyrian camp.  Early the next morning, there they were, all the corpuses of the dead. (2 Kings 19:35 NAB)

Kill Your Neighbors

(Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, “All of you who are on the LORD’s side, come over here and join me.” And all the Levites came.  He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors.”  The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day.  Then Moses told the Levites, “Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing.”  (Exodus 32:26-29 NLT)

Kill the Family of Sinners

And Joshua said to Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession to him; and tell me now what thou hast done, hide it not from me.  And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done.  When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them, and behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.”  [Note that the sin is not looting, but failing to give the loot to the treasury of the Lord.]  “So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.  And they took them from the midst of the tent, and brought them to Joshua, and to all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.  And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them to the valley of Achor.  And Joshua said, why hast thou troubled us?  the LORD shall trouble thee this day.  And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.  And they raised over him a great heap of stones to this day.  So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger: wherefore the name of that place was called the valley of Achor to this day.  (Joshua 7:19-26 Webster’s Bible)

Kill Followers of Other Religions

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women.  These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab.  Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD’s anger to blaze against his people.  The LORD issued the following command to Moses: “Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel.”  So Moses ordered Israel’s judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor.  Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle.  When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly.  Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man’s body and into the woman’s stomach.  So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died.  (Numbers 25:1-9 NLT)

Murder

At the customary time for offering the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet walked up to the altar and prayed, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, prove today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant. Prove that I have done all this at your command.  O LORD, answer me! Answer me so these people will know that you, O LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to yourself.”  Immediately the fire of the LORD flashed down from heaven and burned up the young bull, the wood, the stones, and the dust.  It even licked up all the water in the ditch!  And when the people saw it, they fell on their faces and cried out, “The LORD is God!  The LORD is God!”  Then Elijah commanded, “Seize all the prophets of Baal.  Don’t let a single one escape!”  So the people seized them all, and Elijah took them down to the Kishon Valley and killed them there.  (1 Kings 18:36-40 NLT)

Kill All of Babylon

“Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge!  Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD.  “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”.   (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

Micah Kills a Whole Town 

Then, with Micah’s idols and his priest, the men of Dan came to the town of Laish, whose people were peaceful and secure.  They attacked and killed all the people and burned the town to the ground.  There was no one to rescue the residents of the town, for they lived a great distance from Sidon and had no allies nearby.  This happened in the valley near Beth-rehob.Then the people of the tribe of Dan rebuilt the town and lived there.  They renamed the town Dan after their ancestor, Israel’s son, but it had originally been called Laish.  (Judges 18:27-29 NLT)  (Note that God approves of this slaughter in verse 6.)

For your viewing pleasure Evil God youtube video

 

 




Ignorance

Common Theistic Fallacies

In this article we will address some of the common Fallacies that are used by Theists in arguments.

An important point to be made about fallacies is that it does NOT automatically mean that someone is wrong.

It means that the formulation of their argument is wrong, and that we can dismiss that argument until they can present it in a way that has been argued properly.

 

Argument From Incredulity:

Definition – This fallacy happens when one claims that something is impossible, just because they can’t imagine that it can be possible. This is very common when rejecting scientific claims.

Example – “Of course God created the Universe, I don’t see how it’s possible for it to come from nothing.”

Appeal to Ignorance
Definition – Appeal to ignorance happens when one individual utilizes another individual’s lack of information on a specific subject as proof that his or her own particular argument is right.

Example – “You didn’t even know about (insert piece of scripture). See, I’m right, The Bible promotes Love and Peace, not violence.”

Begging The Question:

Definition – The fallacy of petitio principii, or “begging the question” is committed when someone attempts to prove a proposition based on a premise that itself requires proof.

Example – It says in the Bible that God exists. Since the Bible is God’s word, and God never speaks falsely, then everything in the Bible must be true. So, God must exist.

Straw Man:

Definition – This fallacy is when someone attacks an argument that you haven’t actually made.

Example – You “We should stop schools from forcing children to pray.”

Theist “Stopping Christian children from being allowed to pray in school is religious discrimination !”

Ad Hominem:

Definition – This is an often misused accusation. This fallacy is when someone uses an insult to discredit your argument. it is NOT just insulting someone.

Example – You “Evalution has been completely proved to be true, look at the links that i provided for you.”

Theist “You can’t even spell evolution, of course you’re wrong about it, you’re an idiot!”

Equivocation:

Definition – The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument.

Example – “Everyone needs faith. You have faith when you sit down that your chair will hold you. You have faith in your friends, that they will support you. And I have faith in Jesus Christ.”

Correlation Equals Causation:

Definition – This fallacy is a deception in which the individual making the contention joins two occasions that happen consecutively and accepts that one made the other.

Example – “My Mother In Law had been diagnosed with glaucoma. After praying, she was given the all clear from her Doctor. That’s proof that prayer works.”

Fine Tuning:

Definition – This fallacy states that, because the Universe exists in a way that supports life, and that life as we know it wouldn’t exist if the Universe were different, then it must be designed for us.

Example – “Of course the Universe was intelligently designed by God. Didn’t you know that if even one of the forces was out by 10%, we wouldn’t exist?!”

Watch Maker:

Definition -This fallacy is the false assumption that something complex, such as the Universe, or life, is necessarily designed.

Example – “You can’t have something as complex as a watch without it being designed, and the eye is far more complex!”

Association Fallacy:
Definition – Sometimes called “guilt by affiliation,” this happens when somebody connects a particular thought or drill to something or somebody negative so as to infer blame on another individual.

Example – “Stalin was an atheist, so all atheists must be evil.”

Argument From Authority:

Definition – Instead of concentrating on the benefits of an argument, the arguer will attempt to append their argument to an individual of power or authority in an effort to give trustworthiness to their argument.

Example – “Of course contraception is evil. The Pope says so, and especially the leader of The Church”

Ad Populum:

Definition – This sort of appeal is when somebody asserts that a thought or conviction is correct since it is the thing that the general population accept.

Example – “There are billions of Christians in the world, the wouldn’t all believe it if it wasn’t true.”

Circular Reasoning:

Definition – This fallacy is also known as “Circulus in Probando”. This error is committed when an argument takes its evidence from an element inside the argument itself instead of from an outside one.

Example – “The Bible is the ultimate source of truth. It says so in the Bible, and the Bible is the ultimate source of truth, so it must be true.”

Argument From Ignorance:

Definition – This fallacy claims the truth of a premise is based on the fact that it has not been proven false, or that a premise is false because it has not been proven true.

Example – “If God wasn’t real, you’d be able to prove that he doesn’t exist.”

False Dilemma:

Definition – Sometimes called “Bifurcation”, this sort of error happens when somebody presents their argument in such a way that there are just two conceivable alternatives left.

Example – “People were obviously designed by God. It can’t have happened through random chance.”

False Premise:

Definition – This is a fallacy in which an argument is based around an untrue or unproven premise. This means that the argument itself can appear to be sound, even when it isn’t.

Example – “The universe began to exist” (Premise 2 of the Kalam Cosmological Argument.)

God Of The Gaps:

Definition – God Of The Gaps is a fallacy in which God is inserted as an explanation for something that cannot, at the time, be conclusively explained by something else.

Example – “Science doesn’t know how life came from non life. Therefore God did it.”

Moving The Goalposts:

Definition – This is when a challenge in an argument is changed after it has been met, in an attempt to catch one out, instead of conceding the point.

Example – Theist “Evolution is false. Show me an example of something evolving.”

You “It happens all the time. Look at breeds of dog, or domestic cattle.”

Theist “Yeah, but that isn’t a change in KIND is it?!”

Slippery Slope:

Definition – The error happens when one contends that an exceptionally minor movement will unavoidably prompt great and frequently ludicrous conclusions.

Example – “If we let gay people get married, we’ll be allowing people to marry their pets in no time!”

Cherry Picking:

Definition – This is when only specific parts of a source (The Bible, for example) are paid attention to. This is usually done due to liking what some parts say, but not others. It can also be used to understand how different denominations of the same religion believe in different things. As they naturally pick out the parts which gel with who they already are as a person.

Example – “The Bible is about peace and love. Jesus says Love thy neighbour.”

No True Scotsman:

Definition – Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group do indeed have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to enforce purity by redefining the group to exclude them.

Example – “That murderer isn’t a Christian. No True Christian can kill people.”

Shifting The Burden Of Proof:

Definition – This fallacy occurs when the person making a positive claim tries to insist that they are correct, and that you have the responsibility to prove them wrong.

Example – “I don’t have to prove that God exists, you have to prove that he doesn’t.”

Anecdotal Evidence:

Definition – This, while not exactly being a fallacy as such, is still a flawed argument. It is stating that a personal story counts as proof. Even when there is no other data to support it, or when it can be explained by other phenomena.

Example – “I know that Jesus is real because I had a spiritual experience and heard him speak to me.”




salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus

Broken chains: addressing salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus

Addressing salvation through the sacrifice of Jesus

Salvation through the blood of Jesus, or simply through the sacrifice of Jesus seems to be accepted without question. In the early bible we see the Jewish people had competing religions fighting for membership, with the Bible authors denouncing the abomination of sacrificing the first born child by fire to Baal on numerous occasions. The worshiping of Baal only dies out in the biblical account when the worshippers are rounded up and slaughtered (in a completely human-driven act: 2 Kings 18). Even then, the idea of giving the first born child to a god reappears in the Bible on a few occasions- quite an embarrassment for a real, loving god to have the same desires as an idol.

There is of course agreement that no actual god Baal requested these sacrifices in the first place. We see in many ancient cultures that sacrificial rituals were very common, with human sacrifice being the ultimate price. The idea that our fearful and superstitious ancestors would have leapt to the conclusion that sacrifice of some sort might keep the angry gods at bay is an obvious and uncontentious conclusion.

This article looks at the sacrifice of Jesus in particular, to see if there is any validity to the claim that salvation is possible thanks to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Paying for grace

The implication of the sacrifice is that God needs some magical exchange before he can grant salvation. An omnipotent, loving god could simply grant this through grace. So grace makes the sacrifice unnecessary.

Opinions of Paul

This salvation is documented by Paul and his students. Paul was not Jesus, he was not even a disciple, he didn’t even meet Jesus. He was a superstitious Pharisee who had heard rumours of Jesus. Paul and his students provide opinions on Jesus based on rumour. The writings of Paul and his students accounts for most of the new testament. So the claim that sacrifice saves is unfounded hearsay.

Unfounded messiah

There is robust information explaining how Jesus does not fulfil the messiah prophecies. So the claim of Jesus as the chosen king are unfounded.

Blood sacrifice & Substitution sacrifices

The sacrifice of Jesus is a substitution sacrifice, a ritual Paul was familiar with. This is an old Jewish ritual where animals and produce are given in penance for human sins. Paul’s superstitious ancestors imagined power in blood and that this gift would appease an angry god. The need to atone for guilt is common in all human societies. It is an aspect of social cohesion and not a requirement of a god. So the magical power of sacrifice is unfounded.

Sacrifices for God

Complex sacrifice and offering rituals were established by the priests and Moses along with a detailed set of rules about the size and types of sacrifice, the frequency, the various reasons where offerings are to be made. Many of these sacrifices were designed to give the best of the meat, crops and wine to the priests. The human motivations and absence of divine requirement is obvious. So the divine need for sacrifice is unfounded.

Moses- confessions of a conman

Moses himself apparently grew up in the Pharaoh’s palace. He saw the Pharaoh claiming to speak to the Egyptian gods, magicians doing tricks to convince others the gods were real, priests tithing the masses, claiming the Pharaoh’s power, taking offerings and sacrifices for profit. We see Moses them copy this exact religion, with his cousin as high priest and himself in the Pharaoh’s role. So the entire foundation of Judaism comes not from God speaking to Moses, but from Moses copying Egypt. Judaism as a true religion is unfounded.

Hipster Moses

Genesis unfounded

Moses is commonly credited as being responsible for documenting the first five books of the Bible, which includes Genesis- creation and flood myths which are contradicted many times over by the world and universe we live in- so Genesis is unfounded.
In addition Cain and Abel are the first to make sacrifices of food to a god. At no point in Genesis does god ask for this, and of course nor does he need it. This is one of the tell-tale signs in Genesis that the author grew up in a culture where sacrifice was already a custom, and so the act was just assumed to make sense. So sacrifice again is unfounded.

Design choices & Responsibility of the creator

If God created all people then the perfection or imperfection of people is completely dependent on how god made us. So for God’s creations to sin through imperfection and then need forgiveness is an insult to God’s perfection and a complete contradiction. So the need for forgiveness is unfounded.

Faith over evidence & indirect communication

All of this is documented in a book which reports that God wants to have a relationship with us and wants us to believe. The Bible claims god can communicate directly and provide direct evidence for belief. Yet despite being all powerful and these being his primary objectives for us he avoids the best solutions. If he wanted to communicate he could speak. If he wanted us to believe he could easily give proof. Instead we get exactly the same indirect contact that all false religions must use- calls for faith, books, prophets and preachers. False religions MUST use these things. A real god doesn’t need them. So God’s objectives are unfounded, and as the religion operates exactly like all false religions we can conclude this is a false religion.

Conclusion

We only need to break the chain at one point to show salvation through Jesus isn’t possible. I have shown that it fails at every step. The onus is on the theists to prove that every one of these issues is resolved.

broken-chain

The challenge: theists need to address all the problems outlined. The best way to do so is to start from the ground up.
i.e. Prove the following in this order:

1-A reason for indirect communication
2-Faith over evidence
3-Responsibility of the creator
4-Design choices
5-Genesis unfounded
6-Moses the fraud
7-Sacrifices for God
8-Substitution sacrifices
9-Blood sacrifice
10-Unfounded messiah
11-Opinions of Paul
12-Paying for grace

The idea that the human sacrifice of Jesus would lead to salvation is not a surprising concept for the ancient Jews to assume. But when modern humans accept this without regard for our superstitious history, it leaves them back in time with the worshippers of Baal.

Colin Denman




Conversations with theists and evidence of god

Conversations with Theists – Volume 1: Mind Gymnastics and Tenuous Links to God’s Existence

Why have conversations with theists? It can be interesting to talk to people about their beliefs. It is always good to go in with an open mind. You can learn a lot, even if you are well versed on their religion.

Whilst I find engaging in debate generally fruitless I occasionally jump in to conversations in groups and on people’s pages. There was quite an antagonistic post on someone’s wall and there was a bit of a petty bickering and insulting going on and I stepped in to turn it into a conversation. I don’t see the point in insulting people just for their belief. It achieves nothing. Instead I find it useful to open up a dialogue and see how they got to their conclusion.

In this instance a man, who we shall call BH unless he decides it is okay for me to use his full name, posed that he used to be an Atheist and now believes in God. After a while BH told me the reason he thought God was real. Below is his story, followed by my response that references other things he said throughout the conversation too.

How BH Found God

Please note, in the interest of keeping things pure I have not edited his words for spelling, grammar, or even line breaks.

“Let me begin. My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how did I get this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe too when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A-Z, so to speak, and I’m supposed to be part of the show, why did I have such a violent reaction to it? A man feels wet when he falls into water. That is because man is not a water animal, a fish would not feel wet. Of course I could have given up on my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that then my argument against God would collapse too. For the argument depended upon saying that the whole world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist—-in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless, I was forced to assume that at least one part of reality, namely my idea of justice, was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be to simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out it had no meaning. Just as if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should ever know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.”

A Logical response to BH’s Claim

Thank you for taking the time to write so much. I’m going to take a moment to explain a few things you have said throughout a dialogue that would switch someone off to what you are saying, and perhaps in future build a more convincing picture yourself.

Atheism is a religion

atheism is not a religionNo it isn’t, Theism = belief in god/gods/deities, Atheism means the absence of belief in god/gods/deities. You can have an Atheistic religion, but most are Theistic. This is often split into monotheistic (one god) and Polytheistic (many gods) but less commonly known are the Pantheistic religions. Pantheistic religions essentially equate the universe to being god, rather than the idea of a personal god.

Whilst humans do suffer (and also benefit from) a tribal nature, and therefore people of like mind and beliefs gather together, a religion it is not.

Atheism is simple, too simple, compared to religion

atheism is not simpleAtheism calls people to question the world and the universe and learn about everything, at least if you are atheist due to critical thinking – there are sheep/followers to every group/tribe.

Religion answers everything in one book. Everything else is wrong. God did it.
So how is Atheism simpler than that?

Perhaps in future ask a more open question where it doesn’t seem like you already had an answer and have made up your mind.

You’ve assumed I am Agnostic and you know my beliefs

I would rather perceive myself as an open-minded humanist wanting what is best for all but if we had to use religious terminology for an identifier it would be Agnostic Atheist.

Joining Agnostic and Gnostic to Atheist and Theist is a more recent description, and I Identify as an Agnostic Atheist which means; whilst I am uncertain, and open to the fact I could be wrong, through lack of evidence for god, I do not believe in a god.

The way evidence works is you have evidence FOR something. You then examine and test the evidence to find out if it is for that said thing or if it is wrong. Testing can provide more evidence to strengthen your theory. This leads me on to my next point.
Please proceed to the next page for more information.

You said, “the Bible provides objective evidence of God’s existence”

The bible is not evidence of GodThe bible is evidence that people can write stories.
These stories could be used to search for evidence, but unfortunately there is no evidence of any of it, eg the world-wide flood.

Plus that whole all of us being descended from Adam and Eve, and then everyone being killed and us all descending from Noah and his family? Really?

Let’s not forget the numerous errors and contradictions in the bible, or any other holy book. If we can find and prove one error, then how do we know any of it to be true?

Your argument against God was the universe seemed so cruel and unjust

This sounds like you were never an atheist. You sound like you were angry at god for an unfair life.

That is not a logical argument at all.
There is no evidence for God, so I don’t believe in God.

All I require is credible evidence. No anecdote will convince me, and they interest me less and less.

I don’t have argument against God… because that is either thinking there is a God to have an argument with, or you are arguing with yourself.

“How did I get this idea of just and unjust”

In the first instance, you learn this stuff from your parents. From Watching/reading about super heroes. From cop shows. From cops. From school. From rules. From being a generally moral person.

If we go back far enough this relates back to our tribal nature again. Survival. If we stole from the tribe we would be pushed out the tribe. We learned that we don’t steal from the tribe.

Assumptions

You make a number of assumptions that don’t have any basis. “A Fish would not feel wet” [in water]. How do you know what a fish feels? How is that relevant? I feel dry when I am not wet, and wet when I am. Just because dry is my default doesn’t mean I don’t feel it, just that it is less noticeable.

Click here to go to page 3 – or check out the related posts below!

“My argument against god would collapse too”

Your argument was flawed from the get go, so no wonder it collapsed.BH evidence of god is not evidence at all

“…I was forced to assume that at least one part of reality, namely my idea of justice, was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple”

What an unbelievably tenuous link. The universe is unfair, unjust, doesn’t make sense, but you have a sense of justice, which does make sense, therefore atheism is too simple?

Just read that back to yourself.

“If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out it had no meaning”

What sort of fancy brain gymnastics is that? That’s like saying if Trump really was a bigot we should never have found out that he was a bigot.

“Just as if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes we should ever know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning”

Darkness is the absence of light. It has no meaning.
If there was never any light we may not have the words Dark and Light because there would be no comparative, but that in no way goes to prove Gods existence.

There are thousands of Gods, and you believe in one. I only believe in one less God than you.

For whatever reason you are searching for meaning, it would suggest something is lacking from your life.

To give it meaning you submitted yourself to “God”. This gave it meaning. God has a plan for you. This takes any responsibility away from you, your life, and your decisions that led you to a point where you feel everything is without meaning.

The afterlife gives you hope of a better life than the one you have.
Rather than work on this life, you are waiting for the next.

I have no issue with what you believe. People do what they do to get themselves through this life. The lack of logical and objective reasoning bothers me. The assumptions with no basis bother me. The referring to things as evidence erroneously/lack of understanding of what evidence is bothers me. The “life needs meaning, therefore God” bothers me.

The reason it bothers me is because none of what you have said actually makes any real sense. There was no logical thought process that lead you to believe in God, it was just an emotional response to something missing in your life. You have done mental gymnastics to try and make your belief seem logical, but there is nothing logical about it.

Regardless, thank you so much for your time, I do wish you all the best, and that your life improves for you.

Conclusion

Throughout the conversation BH didn’t really listen to me, frequently glossing over points I made, or rebuttles to his statments continuing to make the same mistakes. He spoke about evidence, and then provided none. His claims were biased and unfounded. The conversation seemed to go the way most conversations with theists do. He has since come back and contined the conversation but since asking for evidence (again) he has not replied. Conversations with theists often go that way as theists cannot handle being quizzed on their beliefs or asked for evidence. The issue is, there is none. Sure there are “feelings” or anecdotal experiences, but we are left pretty empty with those. They are not testable.

Theists are often so strong in their belief of God they do not realise that they are not really making any sense. They feel so strongly that their statement about their belief is the “definitive truth” and objective “evidence” for God’s existence. If you question that belief, they often take it as a personal attack.

It is important to remember never to attack the person, even if they seem foolish. The beleif, the comments, the “evidence” provided are all fine targets, though consider how you word things.  If it starts getting personal it will just turn in to a flame war and you will never get anywhere. Occasionally you learn something new or can actually convince someone to see reason!

I didn’t really learn anything from the conversation above. BH’s story and reasons for becoming a religious theist seemed incredibly vaugue and “wishy washy”. When I didn’t accept his anecdotal evidence and requested something genuine he gave up saying, Evidence to you means nothing, for you seek no evidence. Not seeking evidence eliminates any possibility for critical thinking. Only an atheist, not an agnostic, does not’ seek’ answers to life.

The irony of the statement made me laugh




Contradictions and errors in the bible

Contradictions in the Bible

In reading the Bible you might notice that some things don’t seem to make sense. You might get confused that accounts of events seem muddled, contrary, or erroneous and are looking for answers. How many contradictions have you spotted in the Bible?

You may have asked your vicar/priest etc and had responses that may seem satisfactory, but are they doing anything more than justifying or rationalisation?

How many have you been told there are no contradictions in the bible? “The bible is perfect” “God protects the bible, its message can never be lost” “I don’t understand it but I know they aren’t contradictions/errors”

Rationalizations, Justifications and Excuses

If you have quizzed anyone on these contradictions or any other element that you find to not make sense you have probably had one of these answers:

  1. “That is to be taken metaphorically.”

In other words, what is written is not what is meant. I find this entertaining, especially for those who decide what ISN’T to be taken as other than the absolute WORD OF GOD; which just happens to agree with the particular thing they happen to want…

Whilst poetry and literature are surrounded by metaphor, you often find people picking and choosing which they think is a metaphor or not based on what strengthens their position.

  1. “There was more there than….”

This is used when one verse says “there was a” and another says “there was b,” so they decide there was “a” AND “b” (which is said nowhere).

They rationalise saying that because it doesn’t say they are both separate they can be taken to mean both were there. It also doesn’t say that Luke Skywalker was there using force powers with his prankster mate Joshua to wind everyone up. I guess that happened too.

These people often insist that theirs is the only possible interpretation; which conveniently agrees with what they want.

We honestly cannot prove either way, so the argument is irrelevant.

  1. “It has to be understood in context.”

How often is a particular verse or line been used to suppose a particular point of view?

Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set which is supposed to be taken as THE TRUTH when, if you add more to it, it suddenly becomes “out of context.” How many of you have gotten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown at you?

Yes, context is everything, but this argument does not justify everything that is in the bible.  Both theists and atheists take things “out of context”, but you will often find that when given the full “context” it is still just as bad, or people twist the meaning to their whim.

  1. “There was just a copying/writing/translation error.”

This is sometimes called a “transcription error,” as in where one number was meant and an incorrect one was copied down. Or what was “quoted” wasn’t really what was said, but just what the author thought was said. And that’s right; I’m not disagreeing with events, I’m disagreeing with what is WRITTEN. Which is apparently agreed that it is incorrect. This is an amusing misdirection to the problem that the Bible itself is wrong.

The most annoying thing about this is I have said that the bible cannot be the literal word of god, things have been changed by man, it was written by uneducated people (at least by todays standards) it has contradictions etc. Not to mention most of these stories were told WORD OF MOUTH – Just consider how expensive paper would have been back then, and with no printing presses it would have all been hand written. The earliest writing found was on stone tablets circa 3500BC and they were pictograms – Paper wasn’t invented till 150 AD – prior to this things would have been written down on stone, bamboo, or if they were rich maybe silk.

It is a contradiction in itself to say that the bible is the literal word of god and there are no errors and to then say there was a transcription error. The literal word of God lost in translation. So how much was lost in translation? How many of your beliefs are actually wrong?

  1. “That is a miracle.”

You can’t really argue this one. That is why it is stated as fact. That’s how Christians circumnavigate thinking about the lack of evidence. This should never be used as an excuse/explanation – special pleading anyone?

  1. “God works in mysterious ways.”

A useful dodge when the speaker doesn’t understand the conflict between what the Bible SAYS and what they WISH it said.

  1. “It relates to the time…”

This infers that the bible is old and dated and a new new-testament is needed.

Most Christians choose to IGNORE science because it throws their faith into question. They skirt around contradictions or make the excuses above.

Whilst the bible was writtin in another time where laws were different; if it were truly inspired by god I don’t think elements like condoning slavery or stoning people for their lifestyle choices are exactly acceptable. This is just excusing something that Christians feel uncomfortable with so they don’t have to think about it.

Below are some contradictions found in the Bible.

Contradictions in the Bible

War or Peace?

EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.

Who is the father of Joseph?

MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.

Who was at the empty tomb?

MAT 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.

Is Jesus Equal to or lesser than God?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

What came first, Beasts or Man?

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

 The number of beasts in the Ark?

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

How many stalls and horsemen?

1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.

Is it folly to be wise or not?

PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: “For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

Human vs. ghostly impregnation

ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

The sins of the father

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

The bat is not a bird

LEV 11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
LEV 11:14 And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
LEV 11:15 Every raven after his kind;
LEV 11:16 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
LEV 11:17 And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
LEV 11:18 And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
LEV 11:19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

DEU 14:11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
DEU 14:12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
DEU 14:13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
DEU 14:14 And every raven after his kind,
DEU 14:15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
DEU 14:16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
DEU 14:17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
DEU 14:18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Rabbits do not chew their cud

LEV 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.

“Gerah,” the term which appears in the MT means (chewed) cud, and also perhaps grain, or berry (also a 20th of a sheckel, but I think that we can agree that that is irrelevant here). It does *not* mean dung, and there is a perfectly adequate Hebrew word for that, which could have been used. Furthermore, the phrase translated “chew the cud” in the KJV is more exactly “bring up the cud.” Rabbits do not bring up anything; they let it go all the way through, then eat it again. The description given in Leviticus is inaccurate, and that’s that. Rabbits do eat their own dung; they do not bring anything up and chew on it.

Snails do not melt

PSA 58:8 As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.

Fowl from waters or ground?

GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Odd genetic engineering

GEN 30:39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

The shape of the earth

ISA 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

MAT 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

Astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from anyplace. The kingdoms of Egypt, China, Greece, Crete, sections of Asia Minor, India, Maya (in Mexico), Carthage (North Africa), Rome (Italy), Korea, and other settlements from these kingdoms of the world were widely distributed.

Earth supported?

JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

 

Heaven supported too

JOB 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

The hydrological cycle

ECC 1:7 All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.

JOB 38:22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,

Storehouses are not part of the cycle

Order of creation

Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are “days,” “evenings,” and “mornings” before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as “Elohim,” which is a plural, thus the literal translation, “the Gods.” In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that “it was good.”

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam’s rib)

How orderly were things created?
#1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three “days.”
#2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says “it was good” after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)

Moses’ personality

NUM 12:3: “Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth.”

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: “And Moses was wroth…And Moses said unto them, “Have ye saved all the women alive? … Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, … But all the women children … keep alive for yourselves.”

Righteous live?

PSA 92:12: “The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree.”

ISA 57:1: “The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart.”

ACT 1:18: “Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”

MAT 27:5-7: “And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests…bought with them the potter’s field.”

Jesus’ first sermon plain or mount?

MAT 5:1,2: “And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying….”

LUK 6:17,20: “And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people…came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said…”

Jesus’ last words

MAT 27:46,50: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?” that is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” …Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”

LUK 23:46: “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, “Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:” and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.”

JOH 19:30: “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished:” and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.”

Years of famine

II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;

Moved David to anger?

II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?

In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.

God be seen?

EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
“And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.” (EXO 33:23)
“And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.” (EXO 33:11)
“For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
“No man hath seen God at any time.” (JOH 1:18)
“And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.” (EXO 33:20)
“Whom no man hath seen nor can see.” (1TIM 6:16)

CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:

“I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy.” (JER 13:14) “Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling.”

“The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy.” (JAS 5:11)
“For his mercy endureth forever.” (1CH 16:34)
“The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works.” (PSA 145:9)
“God is love.” (1JO 4:16)

Tempts?

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.” (GEN 22:1)

“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” (JAS 1:13)

Judas died how?

“And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself.” (MAT 27:5)

“And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out.” (ACT 1:18)

Ascend to heaven

“And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2KI 2:11)

“No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, … the Son of Man.” (JOH 3:13)

What was Jesus’ prediction regarding Peter’s denial?

Before the cock crow – MAT 26:34

Before the cock crow twice – MAR 14:30

How many times did the cock crow?

MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.

How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount

MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness’ sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Does every man sin?

1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Who bought potter’s field

ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

Who prophesied the potter’s field?

MAT 27:9-10 (mentions Jeremy but no such verse in Jeremiah) is in Zechariah 11:12-13

Who bears guilt?

GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Do you answer a fool?

PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?

2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:

How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?

2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother’s name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.

Marriage?

Proverbs 18:22
1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40)

Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?

ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?

MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

(various traipsings)

How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?

1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
MAT 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
ACT 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)

MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

Judging

1 Cor 2:15 “The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment:” (NIV)

1 Cor 4:5 “Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.”

Good deeds

Matt 5:16 “In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 “But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” (NIV)

For or against?

MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)

 Whom did they see at the tomb?

MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

God change?

MAL 3:6
JAS 1:17
1SA 15:29
JON 3:10
GEN 6:6

Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)

MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)

Who’s sepulchers

ACT 7:16
GEN 23:17,18

Strong drink?

PRO 31:6,7
JOH 2:11-11

When second coming?

MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(See also 1TH 4:15-18)

 Solomon’s overseers

1KI 9:23 550
2CH 8:10 250

The mother of Abijah:

2CH 11:20 Maachah the daughter of Absalom

2CH 13:2 Michaiah the daughter of Uriel

When did Baasha die?

1KI 16:6-8 26th year of the reign of Asa

2CH 16:1 36th year of the reign of Asa

How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?

2KI 8:26 22

2CH 22:2 42

What was the colour of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?

MAT 27:28 scarlet

JOH 19:2 purple

What did they give him to drink?

MAT 27:34 vinegar

MAR 15:23 wine with myrrh

How long was Jesus in the tomb?

Depends where you look; MAT 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend “three days and three nights in the heart of the earth,” and MAR 10:34 has “after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again.” As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have “after three days,” but the post-Resurrection narratives have “on the third day.”

So are there contradictions in the Bible?

It appears so. Feel free to comment and correct any errors you spot.

The bigger question is, what do these contradictions and errors mean? Do contradictions invalidate the bible as “God’s Word”. If the bible is not god’s word, then it is written by man. If the bible is written by man, where does that leave the Christian faith? With no evidence of the bible’s claims, and it being riddled with contradictions and errors, how can anyone take Christianity seriously?

Authors note

This article was originally written about 10 years ago with content derived from many sources such as; the bible, internet searches and interactions with people of faith. I would like to give credit to the websites I explored but unfortunately it was so long ago I don’t remember where I was reading, or what the sites even looked like.